Active Backup for Business... gone wrong?

[Searcher214]

Anyone using Active Backup for Business noticing that even the initial full backup is substantially larger than the full volume it's archiving?

I'm using ABB for backing up PC's to a NAS, and I was disappointed to see that the product could not just do a specific user profile or directory, only full-volume backup. But I figured at least with data compression, the space it takes up would be less than the size of the full volume. Unfotunately, I'm finding even the initial full backup, before adding in any incrementals, is more than double the size of all the data on the PC that I'm backing up. In this case, PC has only 675 GB of data, but initial backup is consuming 1.43 TB on NAS.
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Edit: I should add that 500 GB of this consumed space is in a folder called @ActiveBackup, which when you click on it in FileManager brings up the ABB GUI. The remaining 950 GB is in a directory named after the PC that's being backed up, but again, the PC only contains 675 GB of data, and this reflects only the very first full backup. The program reports 1.26x data reduction due to compression, so I'd expect the space consumed on the NAS to be only 530 GB. There is one file called "0.img" that is 954 GB in this directory, along with a few other kB-sized files.

 

[Telos]

In this case, PC has only 675 GB of data, but initial backup is consuming 1.43 TB on NAS.

Something is seriously broken. I would delete/recreate the task. If that experience repeats, consider Veeam Agent for Windows.

 

[Searcher214]

Yeah, this just gets weirder and weirder.

The program creates a share called /ActiveBackupforBusiness, and two folders appear in this:

1. @ActiveBackup = 513 GB, Contains 16259 files, 27 folders
   1. This agrees with what's reported in the ABB app, for space used
   2. Not browsable in DSM, just opens ABB app if I double-click on it
   3. If browsed in Windows, contains a folder named @data, which matches the reported size of the backup
2. ActiveBackupData = 954 GB, contains 3 files, 2 folders
   1. This is not reported anywhere, just appeared, with no explanation for it's enormous size
   2. Contains one folder, named for backup task
      1. Contains one folder, named for date
         1. Contains one 954 GB file named 0.img, plus two other very small files

Again, this was a new backup task yesterday, only ran one night. PC only contains 675 GB of data.

I'll see what happens running it a second night, I'm not in a huge rush, but agree I'll probably end up deleting it to replace with something else. I really dislike that it can only do full system or full drive, as I really only wanted to back up individual directories. I don't need to ghost a full drive, nor do I want to, as the way Outlook handles our .pst archive files would waste an enormous amount of space if keeping any level of retention.

 

[Telos]

I really only wanted to back up individual directories

Windows File History
Synology Drive Backup

ABB isn't designed for that (or much else IMO).

 

[Gerard]

I really dislike that it can only do full system or full drive, as I really only wanted to back up individual directories.

Well don’t add a task under pc/mac, add a task under file server. Works great for me

 

[Searcher214]

Windows File History

Yeah, I did love WFH, but unfortunately it's no longer fully supported in Win11. There are probably more posts from users experiencing problems with the now-degraded WFH in Win11, than any other subject on that OS. It actually worked fine at time of Win11 introduction, but several OS updates since have essentially totally broken it. Now, it refuses to "clean up" (their term) old files, and the archive just grows with no end.

Synology Drive Backup

I'll check this out. I actually got onto ABB thru one of Will (SpaceRex) Yarborough's recommendations, he made a video just glowing about the product, but I'm really not impressed so far. Usually his recommendations seem pretty good, but maybe not this one.

ABB isn't designed for that (or much else IMO).

I'm starting to form the same opinion, which is a shame. Like Gerard, I like the idea of a backup solution managed from the server side, in a household with so many PC's under such frequent use.

Unfortunately, the backup didn't run last night, so no chance to report changing archive size. I had forgotten that the default settings only have it running M-F mornings, which of course I can change, but hadn't. Weird they chose Monday morning rather than Saturday morning, as the default schedule, since any computer failure over the weekend would cause the loss of all Friday work.

 

[fredbert]

Ensure you are only backing up the system drive: there are options to backup other drives and ‘everything’.

I would login into the ABB Portal and check if it is only backing up what you expect.

 

[Rusty]

I'm starting to form the same opinion, which is a shame

ABB can backup individual files and directories as Gerard said. Using the "pull" method backup, you can configure it without using any agent. The agent method is a push backup from the client side, and I have it on several machines up and running (the latest and a few years old) with 0 issues.

 

[Searcher214]

Ensure you are only backing up the system drive: there are options to backup other drives and ‘everything’.

I thought that perhaps, it was backing up mapped drives as well, but a quick check of the backup log revealed it is only backing up the C: drive, the only local drive in that PC. I even went into the "Recovery Portal" to browse the archive, and verified the only data there is my one 675 GB C: drive contents, nothing else.

I would login into the ABB Portal and check if it is only backing up what you expect.

Yep, that's the first thing I did, with the results as already listed. There's a directory of size that matches exactly what you would expect, 513 GB = 1.26x PC contents, and then one other mystery directly of roughly double that size (950 GB). In this case, "everything" is just one drive.

ABB can backup individual files and directories as Gerard said. Using the "pull" method backup, you can configure it without using any agent.

I'm running ABB from the NAS. It did force me to also install the agent on the PC, but I had no interaction with that other than entering the IP address of the server into the agent.

But when I go into backup settings for PC/Mac, the only options are:

1. Entire device
2. System volume
3. Customized Volume

Of course I tried customized volume, but it only allows me to select whole drives, which in the case of this PC is just the C: drive.

The agent method is a push backup from the client side, and I have it on several machines up and running (the latest and a few years old) with 0 issues.

Maybe we have different versions, because the Agent that was installed on my PC by this program has no functionality other than a link button to the "Recovery portal". You cannot schedule a push backup from it, so far as I can tell.

You don't have this enormous "ActiveBackupData" directory appearing under your ABB parent share? Have you compared the space in the ABB share to the reported usage of the program? I mean, it appears to be working fine, other than the massive NAS space utilization discrepancy. I'd also report "0 issues", other than catching the fact that it's consuming 1.4 TB to make a single backup of a 675 GB machine.

 

[Gerard]

I'm running ABB from the NAS. It did force me to also install the agent on the PC, but I had no interaction with that other than entering the IP address of the server into the agent.

But when I go into backup settings for PC/Mac, the only options are:

1. Entire device
2. System volume
3. Customized Volume

Of course I tried customized volume, but it only allows me to select whole drives, which in the case of this PC is just the C: drive.

Maybe we have different versions, because the Agent that was installed on my PC by this program has no functionality other than a link button to the "Recovery portal". You cannot schedule a push backup from it, so far as I can tell.

You’re not understanding. Go to ABB in the NAS click file server, add the ip of the computer and a user account on that computer. Setup a task and you’ll be able to browse the folder directories of that computer. Backup what you want. This is what Rusty is referencing as a pull method, you’re pulling the data from the computer.

Installing the Abb agent on the computer will push the data from the computer to the nas.

 

[fredbert]

I just thought "What are the requirements for ABB?" You're showing you have the DS214play but elsewhere you talk about DS923+. Seeing that ABB requires btrfs file system and DS214play doesn't support that, I presume this is all related to a DS923+. Correct?

In ABB's shared folder there is subfolder that has a folder per device and then folders per backup version. Inside each version folder is an image file, 0.img, and this is reported as being the full physical size of the drive it is imaging. The thing is is that it isn't actually this size: I don't know why it is reported like this but it is a compressed image of very little disk size.

If you have also enabled Snapshot Replication on the ABB shared folder then this will take up space.


My ABB shared folder is reported as 4.4 TB in Storage Analyzer. Where ABB is saying the storage it uses is 2.6 TB for 3.6 TB of backed up data. I have snapshots enabled on the shared folder. I generally have backups automated for once a day, and triggered on startup/lock screen, and snapshots once a day too. Working on the premise that data will be elsewhere or temporary during the day: e.g. camera doesn't get images cleaned off straight away, Synology Drive has copies of files, and the NAS uses Hyper Backup too.

 

[Searcher214]

You’re not understanding. Go to ABB in the NAS click file server, add the ip of the computer and a user account on that computer. Setup a task and you’ll be able to browse the folder directories of that computer. Backup what you want. This is what Rusty is referencing as a pull method, you’re pulling the data from the computer.

Installing the Abb agent on the computer will push the data from the computer to the nas.

Thanks. You're right, I wasn't following before. If I set up the backup under File Server instead of PC/Mac, I can also uninstall the agent from the PC?

I just thought "What are the requirements for ABB?" You're showing you have the DS214play but elsewhere you talk about DS923+. Seeing that ABB requires btrfs file system and DS214play doesn't support that, I presume this is all related to a DS923+. Correct?

This is on a DS923+. I'm presently migrating everything off the DS214play onto the DS923+, with some changes.

Thaks to @fredbert's comments about snapshot, etc. I ran Storage Analyzer, and it is reporting this directory only uses 514 GB of space, which totally agrees with ABB logs for the size of this backup. Total space used also adds up to correct percentage of volume size, it all checks out fine.

But I can't imagine why File Station / Properties is telling me this directory is 1.4 TB! This number doesn't have any relevance to anything real?

 

[7Natives]

I've run into this as well, all on Btrfs. There's a known "sizing estimate disparity" with ABB & Btrfs that also show up in other places. The large 0.img file should be an image of the entire machine, assuming you selected that, and actually is more of a placeholder for expanding the compressed files en route back to the client for restores and ensuring the original image remains intact — at least that's my understanding but I could be all wet here. This sizing issue also shows up in Synology Drive. TS indicates it's due to the substantial differences between how Btrfs works and how, say, a windows system might work, and in how both of them estimate the aggregated sizes of files coupled with the various compression techniques they use and, in Btrfs' case, the bit level compression. I don't know if this is of any actual use to you in this instance, but that's what I've been told. It can definitely make knowing when you need to add or pare storage more challenging than it really ought to be. It's a royal pain.

As to curing the issue at hand, nuking it and starting over is probably your best bet at this point. There is one right way to do this and many, MANY wrong ways that can leave rather a mess. (Personal experience). Go into ABB and suspend the task (don't get rid of it), then go to the backed up copies and and get rid of no more than three (3) at a time. It may take days to do this, but under the hood as these are deleted ABB is busy shuffling bits all over the place, It can take hours to actually do three of them. More can take a really, r-e-a-l-l-y long time! Once you get rid of all the backups, you should be able to kill the task and start over knowing a lot more than you did going in.

 

[Searcher214]

Thanks, 7Natives. This all makes sense. And I have no qualms about nuking this setup, as I am still also running backup to my old NAS thru Windows File History. Figured I'd be doing some experimenting with new backup methods to the new NAS, so I won't kill the old backup task to the old NAS until the new one is all set.

It was a busy weekend outside, and moving files from old NAS to new, so I didn't play with this at all. Today I'm going to follow Gerard's suggestion to set up the task as a File Server backup, so I can dial in on just the files of interest.

What's driving that is related to all PC backups running office, so probably worth mentioning here:

If you archive your old email to .pst files , and then open those .pst files in Outlook (such that you can actually search and view old emails ), you will find that Outlook is constantly changing the modified date of those .pst files. I mean constantly, like everytime you open, close, view... any operation, even if it doesn't involve the .pst file in question. This will cause any backup utility to save and store fresh copies of email archives, that actually never change. I've seen server admins admonish more than one user about the size of their backups, and these stupid ever-changing .pst files are often it.

So, whenever setting up backup tasks, I exclude the folder containing the user's Outlook archives files. I can create a separate task for that directory with different retention rules, or even use a batch file to zip and copy them on a monthly basis.

 

[fredbert]

The Outlook archive files, .pst, which aren't currently [last time I checked] supported in the new beta of Outlook [M365?], can be problematic. In OneDrive I know at work we cannot have .pst in there. So I keep zipped archives of the .pst in Onedrive, and a local folder has 'working' unzipped .pst for the few years back I regularly need to check. This because we're recommended to map the Windows personal Documents link to a folder in Onedrive.

 

[Searcher214]

... and to complicate matters even farther, it's recommended by MS that .pst files only be stored on a local drive, never a network drive. They report there's a very high probability of file corruption, if stored on a network drive. I actually have stored them on the NAS before, as it's just so much easier, but I always feel like I'm living on borrowed time when I do. I have actually had one or two get corrupted (in 20~30 years), but always mostly repairable.

Because using Windows File History for PC -> NAS backups doesn't leave any great way for handling these, I've been using task scheduler and a batch file to shut down Outlook one night per week, then zip and move a copy of all .pst files to the NAS. Brute force, but it works. I name the files 01 thru 12.zip, for the months of the year, so I always have a year's retention in case I discover a corrupted archive file months after occurrence.

Now that I'm switching away from WFH to ABB or something similar, I think I'll just set up a separate task to manage the .pst files. Of course, this means I need a way to exclude by file type from the primary backup, since Outlook aways wants to store these files in the user's Documents folder.

 

[7Natives]

If you archive your old email to .pst files , and then open those .pst files in Outlook (such that you can actually search and view old emails ), you will find that Outlook is constantly changing the modified date of those .pst files. I mean constantly, like everytime you open, close, view... any operation, even if it doesn't involve the .pst file in question. This will cause any backup utility to save and store fresh copies of email archives, that actually never change. I've seen server admins admonish more than one user about the size of their backups, and these stupid ever-changing .pst files are often it.

I'll be really interested to see working alternatives for archiving email.

 

[EAZ1964]

I'll be really interested to see working alternatives for archiving email.

Our email provider offers an additional service to their email hosting "email archiving" for around 29€/year.
Although I do not use it, it looks quite convenient.

Personally I just export our IMAP archives a couple of times a year from Apple mail and store the file on the Syno box.

 

[Searcher214]

I'll be really interested to see working alternatives for archiving email.

Other than the annoyance of Outlook constantly (and needlessly) changing modified date, the .ost/.pst system actually works pretty well, once you understand it. Moreover, MS has managed to maintain this system for what... 30 years? I value never-ending compatibility over all else, when it comes to things like archiving old mail that may be needed for reference many years later.

Letting your email provider archive your email might be easier, but I'd be too concerned with them losing important information, or deleting things after long storage... because I didn't read the fine print on their contract.

 

[Searcher214]

Hey @Gerard, or really anyone I guess, SMB vs. rsync for ABB PC -> NAS? ABB wants me to choose, when setting up backup as file server, but the help files have no real information on which you should choose, or why. The article in their Knowledge Center literally says, "Choose SMB Server or rsync server, as suitable."

Google turns up people arguing both ways, but seemingly based more on religion, than any real reasoning.
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edit: Gonna try SMB, since it seems that one supports VSS and rsync may not. I'm often backing up files that are open, and it appears VSS is the best way to get that done. If wrong, steer me straight!