Failed DSM update DX513 & DS720+ (not compatible)

[marky9074]

Having upgraded my DS716+ to a DS720+ recently and having no issues with the migration, noticed that the DSM will not auto update as the DX513 expansion unit is not officially listed as compatible.....

I have five drives in this, and two in the DS720+, so only option is a new DX517 or an eight bay model. I hope that the DX517 would last at least a couple of generations of NAS units, but could be on the backfoot now....

What I would like to know is what is different and why there are compatibility issues (its running fine, just won't update). Can I force DSM updates anyway....? I have had a dig around in the PAT file, and on the NAS itself and found various references, but nothing that looks like a way to bypass the compatibility check to get it to update.

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[fredbert]

Welcome to the forum. Maybe someone will come along with technical info.

Regarding buying a DX517 and how long it will keep supporting newer NAS, isn't the real question 'how long will the DS720+ last?' because until that needs replacing a DX517 will work with its main NAS.

As I read it the main difference between the DX513 and DX517 is the eSATA interface went from 3 Gbps to 6 Gbps. So I guess the next iteration of expansion unit will be when a faster interface is adopted.

Can you return the DS720+ and get a DS1821+ bay NAS? It would probably be the cheaper option plus has potential for 10 GbE network. Is there a reason to stick with Intel CPU vs AMD Ryzen?

 

[marky9074]

Thanks for the welcome. Should have joined here years ago! I did wonder about returning, but its been a month and outside a reasonable time frame to return it to Amazon. That said, I tend to upgrade NAS around every 3-4 years, and the DX513 has been with me for probably eight years now.... Just looking at the cost alone, it's a better strategy to keep updating the 2 bay unit periodically.

However, as you pointed out, I didn't realise until now that these larger bay units have a better processor, which would be most welcome. What concerns me is if there is a DX521 around the corner...

I think my gut feeling is to try and keep using the DX513, albeit at the slower speeds (its just storage for ripped movies at home). I'm sure the kernel must still support it, and it is just a case of Synology obsoleting old hardware.....

 

[fredbert]

If you had got an eight bay NAS now and are likely to update in 3-5 years then you definitely be spending the same money again then. That would be a guaranteed upgrade of £900-£1000 whereas you won't know if it'll be £500 or £1000 when the time comes to replace the DS720+. So you have better or the same odds with the future upgrade of the DS720+ and DX517 vs DS1821+. It's just annoying that the DX513 can't extend it's life further, but you could keep using it with the DS716+ such as a backup server or you might get a reasonable amount selling it.

It occurs that if you can't update DSM then you'll eventually come to a point where it is advisable that you should, like when there's a security vulnerability. You'll then have to decide to either run at risk or upgrade the hardware and software when you are operating an insecure OS.

 

[marky9074]

Alas, the DS716+ has already gone via eBay.... £200 was not bad return for the upgrade! I cannot even find a DX517 in stock anywhere (for a sensible price). Scan has some coming in 5th May so they say... I am surprised they have obsoleted it, I cannot see it being a security risk... just slower.

-- post merged: 19. Apr 2021 --

I am wondering if I can use the migration tool again, or just fire it up without the DX513 to update the DSM (though I do remember that happening accidentally before and the volume numbering got messed up....).

 

[fredbert]

Alas, the DS716+ has already gone via eBay.... £200 was not bad return for the upgrade! I cannot even find a DX517 in stock anywhere (for a sensible price). Scan has some coming in 5th May so they say... I am surprised they have obsoleted it, I cannot see it being a security risk... just slower.

That's a pretty good sale.

As for finding a DX517, I've checked Scan's availability periodically since before getting the DS1520+ (October 2020) and the DX517 has only ever been on pre-order. Maybe the units ship as soon as they arrive?

As for the DX513 being a security risk, that's not what I was trying to say. It's that the DX513 stops the DS720+ being updated to newer DSM versions: eventually there'll be a DSM version to fix a vulnerability and you won't be able to upgrade. It's probably not solely a technical reason for blocking the DX513 working with newer NAS, well you know it isn't cos it works after a fashion, but as much marketing.

 

[marky9074]

Yeah, sorry that was what I meant. There's no security risk it's just blatant racketeering to force you to buy an updated unit that I don't really need. I just found it on BT Business in stock (or so it says), but I will be really annoyed if they release an updated DX unit soon.....

 

[marky9074]

I decided to open a ticket to fish to see if a new expansion model was coming this year (you could assume so given the last two products naming nomenclature). Their response was that I join their newsletter and get notified of new releases... I responded in that I appreciate that they could not disclose their hardware roadmap, but it would seem most likely that a new model was due, and I would be really unfortunate to buy a DX517 now if that was the case....

I did probe to see if I could force a DSM update, to which they said I should try the forums..... ho hum!

 

[marky9074]

Just found this web site synupdate.tech. Clearly he knows how to bypass the hardware checks to update DSM.... Not sure if he is on here or not....

 

[Telos]

Clearly he knows how to bypass the hardware checks to update DSM

Clearly? How so? What proof is there? Looks like vaporware to me... and the older NAS? Why would you run them on DSM7, when they can't handle DSM6?

 

[marky9074]

Hmm could be I guess. At this point I will take any hope that it can be done. On his Instagram and Facebook he has supposed proof of DSM 6 working on an older unsupported model... Before getting my (now old) 716+ I offloaded my 710+ to a friend, so have registered this to see if he comes back with something. There is also a thread on the community page:

Synology Community

Hi! Come and join us at Synology Community. A place to answer all your Synology questions. Ask a question or start a discussion now.

community.synology.com

It does seem that this is a couple of years old now, and the website still has no info, so maybe vaporware as you say. That said, a search on his username has come up with a couple of threads with leads that I could pursue....

 

[marky9074]

Looking further into their methods. It seems that they are identifying obsolete models with the same CPU set that are still supported on newer units, and spoofing model identifiers in the synoinfo.conf file. Seems a bit hit and miss, and completely the opposite of what I am trying to do. Very unlikely I could find an older unit with same chipset that still supports the expansion unit....

Somewhere there must be a configuration file that dictates the compatibility with expansion units, though thus far not found it!

 

[Coop777]

Question....assuming you have not spanned a disk array across the DX513 - why not not detach it, update DSM and then reattach it? Not something I have had to try, might want to do some searching on this for any possible gotchas...

 

[marky9074]

I did wonder about that. I did once accidentally fire up the DS716+ without the DX513 attached and I ended up with a load of new shares created on a different volume. I cannot remember what I did to fix it now, but it wasn't straight forward (think I deleted the shares and added them back, then had to scrape media again).

 

[Coop777]

If the volumes are definitely separate - I do not know why that would happen. Not sure how else you can proceed if you intend to keep the DX513 in play.

 

[marky9074]

I have a Volume 3 on the expansion unit with all my media, and Volume 2 on the NAS with documents and everything critical. The Volume 1 got messed up when trying to use larger drives, and DSM refused to increase the size of my EXT2 RAID 1 pool, so I ended up creating a new Volume 3 as Synology Hybrid Drive - copying everything across, then rebuilding the array with the second disk. This was a pain as all the Synology packages had to be moved also.

I still have the ticket with Synology. I could just point blank ask when happens if I boot with the DX513 detached....

 

[Coop777]

I'd expect a "not supported do at your own risk" answer.

 

[marky9074]

I got that the wrong way around before (and cant seem to edit it now) - Volume 2 is all media, and my new Volume 3 is the stuff from the old Volume 1. I have no problem with hacking the box to get the right result, not sure I want to brick it though. That said, probably time to have a fresh install.....

 

[marky9074]

Interesting.... someone on the official forums has pointed out that some of the older models (like my old DS716+) have had a DSM update that allows compatibility with not only the DX513, but also the DX517, and DX213....

Why would they update the older models to support more expansion units, but remove compatibility for newer units - unless it is a blatant act of deliberate obsoleting of hardware (think I have answered by own question there).....

I see that I am only one DSM update old, so I am not too concerned at the moment. Maybe when DSM 7 comes out I will be a little more eager to resolve the issue...

 

[Shadow]

Interesting.... someone on the official forums has pointed out that some of the older models (like my old DS716+) have had a DSM update that allows compatibility with not only the DX513, but also the DX517, and DX213....

Why would they update the older models to support more expansion units, but remove compatibility for newer units - unless it is a blatant act of deliberate obsoleting of hardware (think I have answered by own question there).....

Sounds similar to something else that happened recently...