Question Newbie installation questions

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Question Newbie installation questions

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I currently have a bunch of local hard drives, and I've finally saved up enough money to buy a NAS (a DS1019+). So, I need to move the data from my local PC to the NAS, but there's a catch. I also want to move those local drives INTO the NAS (I can't afford to buy new drives).

My existing drives are one 4TB and three 5TB drives, that together contain about 11.4 TB data (see chart below). In order to help me make the migration, and provide room for growth, I have purchased an additional 5TB drive. If I've calculated correctly, those 5 drives (1x4TB, 5x5TB) should give me 19TB under SHR, or 14TB under SHR2.

My plan was to initially set up the NAS with the new 5TB drive, and then move the data from one of my existing drives onto the NAS. When this is complete, I had planned to put this now empty existing drive into the NAS, and repeat the process, until all the drives are moved across.

However, having read the documentation, I see two problems with that:
  1. If I'm using SHR, I need to start with the smallest drive first, because it seems as though you can't add smaller drives to an SHR array. That's relatively easily solved – I can just move data from my old 4TB drive onto the new 5TB one, and then set up the NAS first of all with the new empty 4TB drive, and then move all the data back onto it.
  2. But more problematic is that as soon as I put my second drive in, the NAS is going to use that for protection, and my storage is not going to grow. That will prevent me from moving any more data to the NAS. I had thought this wouldn't matter because I could use RAID 0 during set-up, and later convert to SHR, but it seems from the documentation that won't be possible.
Have I understood the limitations correctly? If so, to ensure I start with the 4TB drive, and always have enough spare capacity in the NAS to move data across, I think I will need the following plan. It seems overly complex, but I can't think of a better way of doing it. Can anyone confirm?

DriveCapacityUsed space
Drive E4TB (3.63 useable)3 TB
Drive X5TB (4.54 usable)0.8 TB
Drive Y5TB (4.54 usable)3.1 TB
Drive Z5TB (4.54 usable)4.5 TB
Drive N (new drive)5TB (4.54 usable)0 TB


ActionInternal Drive Usage at end of actionNAS Configuration at end of action
Move Drive X data to Drive YE:3, X:0, Y:3.9, Z:4.5, N:00 drives, 0TB available, 0TB used
Move Drive E data to Drive XE:0, X:3, Y:3.9, Z:4.5, N:00 drives, 0TB available, 0TB used
Put E Drive into NASX:3, Y:3.9, Z:4.5, N:01 drive, 4TB available, 0TB used
Move Y data to NASX:3, Y:0, Z:4.5, N:01 drive, 4TB available, 3.9TB used
Put Y Drive and N Drive into NASX:3, Z:4.53 drives, 9TB available, 3.9TB used
Move Z data to NASX:3, Z:03 drives, 9TB available, 8.6TB used
Put Z Drive into NASX:34 drives, 14TB available, 8.6TB used
Move X data to NASX:04 drives, 14TB available, 11.6TB used
Put X drive into NAS5 drives, 19TB available, 11.6TB used
 

fredbert

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Firstly, you're right about the different RAID/SHR types and migration paths. SHR will be best option as you can start with a smaller disk and build up with bigger, and later convert to SHR-2 if you need to.

The data juggling looks about right too. My only thought is that your calculations are close to the disk capacities and you say, for example, 4TB (3.63 usable) and 3TB used. Is that 3TB used of 3.63TB or 3TB of 4TB? Because you plane to move 3.9TB onto the 4TB (3.63 usable) disk when in the NAS.

Also, there will be some space reserved on each disk to install DSM.

The Synology RAID calculator omits 5TB drives and I can't see any NAS HDD of that size, I guess everything is desktop HDD for the moment until you can start to swap over when the time comes?
 

Rusty

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@markbarnes well you have done your homework for sure. All the limitations that you have found out are correct and you will have to keep one thing in mind that @fredbert said. When you start with 4TB as SHR you will have to convert it to SHR2 (when you add Y and N drives) if you want 2 drive redundacy. If you dont want it, its fine.

Also, important thing to note here is that using synology raid calculator site. Capacity calculations and results are with empty drives only AND with the entire setup of drives being used of the bat. So that means that the result might be different if you add new drives later on with capacity changing on top of it. So starting with 6drives using the raid calc (empty ones) will not have the same result midway when you start adding them one by one into the array and expand it. The end result might be close regarding capacity but just keep that in mind.
 
21
3
NAS
DS1019+
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  1. Windows
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Thanks for the advice. It's useful to know I might not have as much space as I thought I might. I have a spare 1 TB drive, which I can use temporarily to ease the pressure.

Thanks for the reminder about NAS drives, too. I cancelled my order for the new 5TB desktop drive and purchased a 6TB Ironwolf instead. I'm not going to replace all the other drives yet. That will have to wait until I can afford it. This is only for home use, so the drives aren't going to get hammered all day.

That leaves me with the following plan.

DriveCapacityUsed space
Drive E4TB (3.63 useable)3 TB
Drive X5TB (4.54 usable)0.8 TB
Drive Y5TB (4.54 usable)3.1 TB
Drive Z5TB (4.54 usable)4.5 TB
Drive N (new drive)6TB (5.32 usable)0 TB
Drive S (spare drive)1TB (0.9 usable)0TB


ActionInternal Drive Usage at end of actionNAS Configuration at end of action
Move Drive X data to Drive SE:3, X:0, Y:3.1, Z:4.5, N:0, S:0.80 drives, 0TB available, 0TB used
Move Drive E data to Drive XE:0, X:3, Y:3.1, Z:4.5, N:0, S:0.80 drives, 0TB available, 0TB used
Put E Drive into NASX:3, Y:3.1, Z:4.5, N:0, S:0.81 drive, 4TB available, 0TB used
Move Y data to NASX:3, Y:0, Z:4.5, N:0, S:0.81 drive, 4TB available, 3.1TB used
Put Y Drive and N Drive into NASX:3, Z:4.5, S:0.83 drives, 9TB available, 3.1TB used
Move Z data to NASX:3, Z:0, S:0.83 drives, 9TB available, 7.8TB used
Put Z Drive into NASX:3, S:0.84 drives, 14TB available, 7.8TB used
Move X data to NASX:0, S:0.84 drives, 14TB available, 10.8TB used
Put X drive into NASS:0.85 drives, 19TB available, 10.8TB used
Move S data to NASS:05 drives, 19TB available, 11.6TB used
 
21
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Last edited:
Buying the 6TB drive just made this a bit more complicated, as it means I can't put that drive into the array until last. I also didn't realise just how long it takes to copy this much data. It's going to be a week's work to move everything. Even a 1Gbps network connection only equates to about 116MB/s, which is about 1TB every 2¼ hours. So I'm only able to do two or three steps of progress every 24 hours – one during the day, and the other at night. Then there's the constant RAID rebuilding whenever I insert a new drive. And it doesn't help that my motherboard only has two SATA3 ports and only one of those is available, so I'm mostly stuck with SATA2 which doesn't even reach 116MB/s.

Still, I'm getting there.

You've been so helpful, I have some more questions about my iTunes library, encrypted folders, and installing Let's Encrypt certificates. Is it best to create new threads for each of those, or is it better to ask them here?
 

Rusty

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I have some more questions about my iTunes library, encrypted folders, and installing Let's Encrypt certificates. Is it best to create new threads for each of those, or is it better to ask them here?
Considering the topic title is general you can continue here. But, we also encourage you to search for topics that might have this already covered as well as the Resource section of the forum. There you might find some answers as well. All in all, if you don’t find anything just ask.
 
21
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Thanks @Rusty .

I'm happy to do my own research. It's more a question of making sure I've understood something correctly before I get too far down the road.

OK, first up, iTunes/Sonos.

I'm on Windows and am using iTunes as a music, audiobook, TV and film media hub. I have a 4th-gen Apple TV, and (when it works) I use home sharing to allow me to watch or listen to my iTunes library through the Apple TV. I also have a Sonos speaker, to which I can stream music using the Sonos desktop app.

I want to move my iTunes library to the NAS, and be able to watch/listen on the Apple TV and/or Sonos without needing my PC turned on.

Assuming I move my media files to the Music folder that DSM has created on the NAS, my understanding is that:
  1. The iTunes package on Synology will allow me to access my iTunes library on my PC, but won't activate Home Sharing, and therefore won't give access on the Apple TV. Instead, it would allow other desktop iTunes users to share the library (which I don't need). This package is probably, therefore, a bit pointless for my usage.
  2. Instead, it's better to let iTunes manage my media and simply move my iTunes library to the music folder on the NAS using the option provided in iTunes settings.
  3. I can download the DS Video app to my Apple TV which will enable me to view my TV and film library on the Apple TV (but not listen to music or audiobooks).
  4. If I install the Media Server package (or Minim), I can also add my music and audiobook shared folders to the Sonos app on my phone and it will index the files and make them available to my speaker.
  5. DS Audio will allow me to stream audio to my phone, even if I'm out of the house (presumably I have to open some ports for that).
In all this, I'm assuming that both Media Server and DS Audio support the .m4b format, which is what I use for my audiobooks.

Is this the best way of proceeding?
 

Rusty

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Well you did your homework and came to the conclusion that the 3rd party media platform is the way to go. My recommendation for your needs is Plex not DsVideo. Number of plex audio books topics here as well as general plex discussions.
 
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I've never liked Plex because it ignores my carefully catalogued metadata and album covers, and insists on downloading its own. (Which is useless for things like downloaded radio shows.)
 

fredbert

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  1. The iTunes package on Synology will allow me to access my iTunes library on my PC, but won't activate Home Sharing, and therefore won't give access on the Apple TV. Instead, it would allow other desktop iTunes users to share the library (which I don't need). This package is probably, therefore, a bit pointless for my usage.
  2. Instead, it's better to let iTunes manage my media and simply move my iTunes library to the music folder on the NAS using the option provided in iTunes settings.
  3. I can download the DS Video app to my Apple TV which will enable me to view my TV and film library on the Apple TV (but not listen to music or audiobooks).
  4. If I install the Media Server package (or Minim), I can also add my music and audiobook shared folders to the Sonos app on my phone and it will index the files and make them available to my speaker.
  5. DS Audio will allow me to stream audio to my phone, even if I'm out of the house (presumably I have to open some ports for that).
In all this, I'm assuming that both Media Server and DS Audio support the .m4b format, which is what I use for my audiobooks.
  1. Yes, 100% correct.
  2. I think so:
    1. if you mean in iTunes to set the media library location to be a mounted NAS shared folder (e.g. /music/iTunes Meda). Also to set iTunes to keep media organised (i.e. it will copy files to the media folder rather that just link to the original location... also offer do this to current files if you switch it off then on).
    2. Alternatively, with iTunes unlaunched, move the PC media folder to the NAS then open iTunes and tell where the new folder is. It will re-index.
    3. You will have to tell Indexing Service that /music isn't all music. Instead set new indexes for each subfolder within iTunes Media folder.
  3. No idea. Don't have an Apple Watch.
  4. Media Server will server all Index Server folders as DLNA media. I use this for my HEOS system with iOS HEOS app. if Sonos app supports reading DLNA servers then it should work.
    1. Audio Station also sees AirPlay receivers (v1 works, v2 doesn't but is said to be in DSM 7's update) and UPnP receivers.
  5. DS audio connects (like other DSM packages) to open ports that you allow through your router/firewall, or QuickConnect. You can opt to downgrade streamed music.
    1. DS audio can also act as a remote control for Audio Station and stream from NAS to speakers without passing through the phone.
M4B: Yes. I use this for chapertised audiobooks and they play within DS audio, and Media Server sees them (up to the player to play them). We've have a discussion about playing audiobooks.

I tend to access M4B using DS file from within BookPlayer (‎BookPlayer) or there is the Plex supported Prologue. Both these support chapterised and saved position playback... DS audio/Audio Station does not.

You don't have to decide Plex or Audio/Video Station. I have one set of media files and run all these media servers. I find Plex is better at tagging than Video Station. But VS is ok once done and you've exported vsmeta files. But sounds like you embed images and other metadata in music files and Audio Station reads them, which Plex can do but offers to get Internet tag data too (if you set it up to do that).
 

Rusty

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I've never liked Plex because it ignores my carefully catalogued metadata and album covers, and insists on downloading its own. (Which is useless for things like downloaded radio shows.)
Fair point
 
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I've never liked Plex because it ignores my carefully catalogued metadata and album covers, and insists on downloading its own. (Which is useless for things like downloaded radio shows.)
You can prioritize where Plex pulls from. To a large extent that should mitigate what you described.
 
21
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How long should it take to reconfigure the raid array? I'm using SHR1. I had one full 4TB drive, and then added an additional two 5TB drives at the same time. That was 36 hours ago, and it's still only 45% of the way through expanding the storage pool (although that's 45% of the second drive, so presumably it's about 75% of the way through the whole operation). I've been unable to write to the NAS in all that time because the storage us almost full. How can it take 48 hours to copy 4TB of data?
 
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How can it take 48 hours to copy 4TB of data?
If I understood your question right, it’s not copying the data like if you’re copying to a single drive. It involves heavy mathematical computations to generate and distribute the parity data over the RAID disks, that’s what makes it “(R)edundant” and that’s why it’s taking a long time.
 

fredbert

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I'm not into validating the maths nor inclined to read RAID specs, so this is how I see how it happens...

When you add a new disk to the array then the NAS has to recalculate all the parity data of all data blocks in the array with the new disk included.​
The array breaks down each disks space into a number of blocks and assigns a block from each disk together. This gives N-1 blocks for your data and 1 for parity data. Repeat with all the disk space until all usable space has resilience added. SHR is able to maximise usable space with mixed sizes of disks: adding bigger disks later and if there is at least two of them.​
The parity data is used to reverse calculate what any missing disk's data would have been. It will take the remaining disks data in the same block and combine it with that block's parity data.​

That's why it takes a long time to expand and repair an array and also why creating an array from new disks takes so much less time. You're saving money by re-using your disks but it is costing you your time.
 
21
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Thanks for the replies. I'm just surprised that (a) this task didn't happen in the background after the storage pool had increased, and (b) that both disks weren't re-calculated at the same time (it seems that a lot of data was written to disk 2, and then later moved from disk 2 to disk 3).

Presumably, this means that each time I add a disk to the array it will take longer than the previous time to rebuild because there will be more data to calculate?
 

fredbert

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I've only got 2-bay NAS at the moment, so you can tell me later :)

Sit back and wait. Have a :coffee: and a 🍪 from the tin.
 
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Presumably, this means that each time I add a disk to the array it will take longer than the previous time to rebuild because there will be more data to calculate?
I’d say yes. More to calculate and distribute.
Apologies if this is a silly suggestion at this stage, but have you considered RAID 10 (one zero) instead?
Less overall space but much better performance with mirroring.

Otherwise, wait and enjoy the cookies. They’re really nice whenever we get them. I think we still have a few more left after @Telos splurged on us when we all exorcized his Sonesta demons.
 
21
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Apologies if this is a silly suggestion at this stage, but have you considered RAID 10 (one zero) instead?

I can't afford RAID10, unfortunately. The maximum I could get out of my existing drives on RAID10 would be 10TB, whereas SHR2 would give me 14TB by using that 5th bay. (I already have 11TB of data.) To get 14TB with RAID10, I'd have to replace my three 5TB drives with another 6TB and two 8TB drives. That would cost me about £600 ($770) for IronWolfs. I'm prepared to wait a looong time to save £600!
 
1,463
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DS220+ : DS1019+ : DS216+II : DS118 : DS120j : APC Back UPS ES 700 — Mac/iOS user
It’s ok. You’ll need more cookies (the waiting is longer). Things will work out at the end, hopefully :)
 

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